Clusterfuc(k): [Anime-Koi vs. Asenshi vs. Commie vs. Doki vs. Hatsuyuki vs. Shini-subs] – Part 2

Fansub Review, Subtitle Comparison — By on October 24, 2012 12:57 am

This post was written by Dark_Sage. He is Dark_Sage.

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And we’ll finish off the clusterfuck with script analyses.

I would like to note the limitations of doing it this way before we start. I went ahead and watched the HorribleSubs version of this episode. And then for the script part, I compared the HorribleSubs version to each group’s. Because I’m critiquing off of scripts alone, I will miss things that I don’t miss in my Fansub Reviews. However, it also offers me the opportunity to talk about editing, which I often neglect. Explanation out of the way, onto the fun.


Fansub or fansunk?

(Okay, that title was bad.)

I mentioned this last season, but some people didn’t get the memo, so I’m gonna say it again: If you don’t edit your subs, you’re instantly disqualified. I review fansubs, not streamrips, and that means I require a minimal (very, very minimal) amount of effort from the releases I look at. If a release hasn’t been edited, I’m not going to waste my time reviewing it because people might as well just watch the official stream or a rip then.

That being said, two groups got their asses disqualified for not even putting a shred of effort into their release.


and Shini-subs.

Let me explain what exactly you’re looking at in those two screens.

I’m using a program called Notepad++ along with a compare extension to allow me to compare two scripts to each other. The differences are highlighted, making it easy to tell how the “fansub” script differentiates from the ripped Viz script. As you can see from the screenshots, there aren’t very many differences between these groups’ scripts, making it easy for me to tell that neither script was edited.

So, those two groups are disqualified. If they aren’t prepared to put in the time it takes to edit an episode (45 minutes to an hour and a half), there’s no reason they should expect you to put any time into watching their lazy product.

Doki barely made the cut. I kept them in because it’s not a Clusterfuck with just three groups. Also, the first third of the script was edited with sufficient vigor (but it looks like the editor mostly gave up after that).

Hatsuyuki/Anime-Koi/Commie passed the litmus test. Good on them.



Editing Decisions/Overall Phrasing/Errors — The Whole Shebang



My policy is to judge a man by his actions.
I’m telling you, that’s not me!
You have the wrong guy!


I judge a man by what he does.
And I’m telling you I didn’t do it!
You have the wrong guy!

The Anime-Koi edit here was good because it links Emo-kun’s line to Yoshiro’s. You can see the linking of “do” to “does” here that’s completely lacking in the Viz version.



You’d catch me before I have a chance.


I wouldn’t get very far.

A-Koi’s version gets to the essence of the line better than Viz’s did. No need for a lengthy line when a simple one like this will suffice.



She was born with a serious illness


She was born with a debilitating illness

You can see A-Koi’s is much more specific, which lends more significance to the line. The improved word choice paints a better scene of the story Yoshino is trying to tell.



Mark the location. I’ll head right over!


Mark the location, and I’m there!

A-Koi’s is smoother and, dare I say, more “hip and with it”.


Nice one.





Why, you bastard!

This was a bit of a miss. True, “You!” is not a sufficient line, but this line flows awkwardly — the “Why, ” just doesn’t fit. Go with “You bastard!” and you’d be fine.

If you want to get closer to how this would sound in, say, a dub, “I’ll fucking kill you!” would hit closer to the mark. (He’s a swearing street thug. Get over the language, you pussies.)



Once I’m done with you, I’ll tie that idiot down.


Once I’m done with you, I’m gonna tie that motherfucker up!

Yeah, now we’re fucking talking. The original subs were a bit stale and needed some sprucing up like with this line. This language definitely fits the context, so if you see some literalfag throwing a hissy fit over this, throw them into the path of a bus.



You’re being so dramatic! I’m just doing what’s right.


Wow, what a mouthful! I’m just doing what’s right.

Her response is not in regards to how much he said, but rather the manner in which he said it. If he gave a long speech, “Wow, what a mouthful!” would be accurate. But she was commenting on his extreme (one could say archaic) politeness. So this is pretty much just wrong.



H-Here, put this on!
I don’t want to!
Clothes are too restricting. I hate them!


H-Here, just put this on for now.
Don’t wanna.
Clothes are too tight! I hate them!

Spot-on characterization. Childish, pouty, and selfish works a lot better with simpler lines.



When is breakfast?


Is it done yet?

Neither one really hit the mark. “I’m hungry now!” would be better for this scene, since Neko can clearly see the status of breakfast from that vantage point.





Don’t judge a book by its cover. It’s what’s inside that counts.
It’s not a person’s appearance, or even what’s inside.


Don’t judge a book by its cover.
It’s what’s on the inside that counts.
This isn’t about what you look like inside or out.

Though it looks clever at first, Commie’s change doesn’t really do it right. For the response to be witty, you’d have to interpret the “It’s what’s on the inside that counts.” line as “It’s what you look like on the inside that counts.” which is not a conclusion anyone’s going to jump to.



No matter how you look at it, that’s you!


No matter how you look at it, it’s you!

Why would you make this change? The new line is worse than the old one. Unless… Commie! You switched the scripts around on me, didn’t you? Aww, you trick– Wait, no. You guys just suck. Got it.



If you’re accusing me of murder,
then shouldn’t you just hand me over to the police,
and let a prosecutor and judge determine my guilt?


If you’re accusing me of murder,
then shouldn’t you just hand me over to the cops
and let the justice system handle it from there?

Smooth change. Nice.



Mind putting me down first, though?


Can you put me down first?

I don’t really have the space here to go over all the minor changes here, but Csiko made a significant amount of changes in this script that alone don’t particularly draw one’s attention on their own but together give the script a new flavor from the original Viz version. This is actually a really important part of editing that my reviews don’t usually touch on (since I’m more concerned with talking about the final script rather than the process it took to get there). The whole portion from 4:15 to 5:12 is a great example of this.

Yes, we’re very close. -> Yes, we’re pretty close.

It’d be useless, anyway. -> There’d be no point anyway.

to my younger sister. -> to my little sister.

The changes all come together to make a more colloquial, less-academic script.

But if it sounds like I’m gushing over just Commie here, that’s not really the best takeaway. This is something every halfway-decent editor does with the scripts they edit, and it’s not very hard at all. But it is important to note because many subpar/new editors forget that they’re editing a script and not QCing it.

Csiko adopts a more liberal style in this script and others (which is my personal preference), but other editors can adopt a more conservative stance and have it work well too — it’s all about context and what makes sense.



I managed to get out of that one.
Next time, though, he’ll kill me on the spot.


That was a close call…
He’ll probably kill me on the spot next time.

All right, that’s the last one of this type I’ll put up. I think you get the idea by now that the script is generally a damn good improvement in terms of phrasing over the original Viz script.


Translating HOMRA into a different name? Interesting choice.

Purists probably won’t enjoy this change, but I thought it fit because HOMRA is a terrible fucking name.


Commie missed an opportunity for language improvement here that Anime-Koi was not willing to. You don’t need to swear here to get the point across, but the line needs some spicing up.

“After I beat the black out of y–” Okay, no. That’s not gonna work.

“After I kick your limp wrists strai–” Maybe that won’t either.

Well, you get the gist. Something with impact. “I’ll tie you down.” is less of a threat and weird way to find a partner for your BDSM fetish.



His death warrant.
Did you say…wallet?


His death warrant.
Wallet? Is that it?

Commie’s response here doesn’t fit very well. “His wallet?” is a better line for that girl to say since Commie’s stretches the line length a bit too far here, almost begging for an awkward response from the guy.


Oh Commie.

(Well, if you really wanted to argue that this is acceptable, you could. But it looks like shit, so let’s not.)





By order of the former Seventh King, Ichigen Miwa…


By the former order of the Seventh King suitor, Miwa Ichigen…

Oh my god, no. Doki, Doki, what the fuck are you doing?


Hmm, I think this explains what they were doing. Read the comments and enjoy the trainwreck.

By the former order of the Seventh King suitor, Miwa Ichigen…{By the former order of the Seventh King Candidate, Ichigen Miwa…}
I shall take… {note i shall be taking your life edit to your liking}
Wait just a moment!
…your life!
Do you seriously plan to kill me?!{do you seriousely plan to kill me?! honki de korusu tsumori how the hell did viz get it like this?~}
Do you intend to resist?{do you plan to resist?}{aragau no ka i love this part as aragau is in the ending song for shin sekai yori~}
I didn’t do anything!
I’m innocent!
Was Miwa-san’s order really to kill an innocent person?!{did that Miwa san order was to kil and inoccent person?!}
Okay, I may not look so innocent at the moment…
But you know what they say: {but well you know what they oftenly say}
“Don’t judge a book by its cover.”
“It’s what’s inside that counts.”{well if it works in english that’s fine but what he said in japanese is “you don’t judge people by their looks it’s what inside that matters” if you like it Viz style keep it that way~}
It’s not about a person’s appearance, or even what’s inside.{it’s not about a person’s looks or even what’s inside}
I believe one should judge a man by his actions.{i think that a person should be judged based on his actions}{kangae is toughts so policy does not work in this case go for another option}
That’s why I’m telling you, that’s not me!{that’s why i’m telling you that’s not me!}
You have the wrong guy!{you have the wrong person!}

This is stupid central and the Doki train’s never leaving the station.



If you’re accusing me of murder,
then shouldn’t you just hand me over to the police,
and let a prosecutor and judge determine my guilt?


If you’re accusing me of murder,
then shouldn’t I be caught by the police,
and my guilt be determined by a prosecutor and judge?

That’s a very fucking awkward “correction”, Doki.


Doki, please. There’s no scale for put downedness; it’s fucking binary. He either gets put down or he doesn’t.

Maybe you were looking for lowered; that at least allows for some room here.


Are you jealous of Hadena or something? Is that why you’re acting like this?

Not a very constructive way to get attention, Doki. :/


Why did they change this from HOMRA to Homura? Do… Do they think HOMRA is a person? Nah, there’s no way. That would just be–

Oh god, I think they do.


a/an. Learn the difference. Actually, fuck it, I’ll teach you.

Use “an” before words that start off with the sound of a vowel. “an honor”, “an apple”, “an honorable apple”.

Use “a” before words that start off with the sound of a consonant. “a dog”, “a bowl of soup”, “a Korean specialty”.


I think we’re done here.




I’m pretty liberal when it comes to incomplete sentences, but come on now.



Okay, so let’s assume for a moment that I really did kill someone.


Okay, so let’s say I unwillingly accept that I killed someone.

Not really close. You’re completely misunderstanding the point of a hypothetical situation.



Don’t worry, I won’t run.
It’d be useless, anyway.


Don’t worry, I won’t run.
Since, It’d probably be useless.

Useless is something you know all too well, Hatsuyuki.


Well it’s not like Hatsuyuki AND Doki would get this wrong. I bet this change from HOMRA was correct.


If you don’t know English, don’t become a fansub editor. Seriously, do something like timing or typesetting — anything that doesn’t involve you touching my fucking native tongue with your filthy, uneducated hands.



His death warrant.
Did you say…wallet?


His last rites.
Did you say… lights?

The original joke worked fine; it just needed a slight improvement. So why’d you change this into something worse?





I felt Anime-Koi had better phrasing when it came to the characters’ personalities and Commie had better phrasing in a more generic, overlapping sense. Hatsuyuki and Doki both failed. Completely.

Based on this Clusterfuck, I’m gonna say that Anime-Koi is my choice after I factor in the visuals from the first part. But if we’re to go solely by scripts, Commie wins this one.

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Nemui says:

Doki script:
>No, we’re not lying.{uso janai is not joking baka viz}
No comment.

Just a thought, if someone took one of our scripts and did nothing to it but add honorifics or something, I wouldn’t care as long as they were open that that’s exactly what they were doing. I guess it’s different when subbers release a script under their own tags as being “edits”.

FalseDawn says:

“I’m gonna hogtie that meathead.”

No need to thank me. I’ve been creating PG13 subs for years ^__^

furzi says:

I expected this considering that I didn’t really have the time to edit the first two episodes.

Oh well, can’t be herped.

Sapphi says:

A good way to change things up.

stushi says:

I know, right?

temp_late says:

Wow indeed.

That said, for some of the entries in the table, I’m sure with a large enough sample size (and assuming relevant blogs selected at random, not cherry-picked and bogus), assessments that most people would agree with, you could easily get statistical significance for the male-female author contrasts. That kind of analysis is quite clearly too much :effort: though, not worth the time for something that pointless.

ruzenor says:

Criticsm, insults, and flaming for women = 0.

Oh fantasy.

8thSin says:

I haven’t seen this episode, but…

“Clothes are too restricting. I hate them!” -> “Clothes are too tight! I hate them!”

Doesn’t the edit sound freaking retarded? “Clothes are too tight,” in general? Wut?

This line is almost guaranteed to be “It feels suffocating” or “It feels constraining” that the editor misinterpreted from “restraining,” which sounds awkward but actually makes sense.

Also, I think “to my younger sister.” -> “to my little sister.” is an acceptable edit to make the conversation sound more colloquial, but I refuse to believe “Yes, we’re pretty close” has the same weight as “Yes, we’re very close.”
Of course, Commie’s change may be more appropriate depending on context, but IMO it’s a risky change for an editor to make unless he knew Japanese.

Doki and Hatsuyuki have always been hopeless, but personally I would rather download HorribleSubs or “failed litmus test” releases than hope that editors have godly story comprehension skill.

FalseDawn says:

I agree with 8th on the “too tight” bit. From that screenshot, it suggests that the clothes themselves aren’t tight (as in ill-fitting) but she actually prefers being freer by not wearing any clothes (making restrictive the right word – and I can’t think of a word off the top of my head that you can replace it for to dumb it down).

The other line would probably be better if the edit was less conservative – like “Yes, we’re almost there.” or “We’re right on top of it.” (whatever ‘it’ is in this context). But yeah, very != pretty.

Dark_Sage says:

Unless Neko is using sophisticated Japanese words in one of those “Haha, she looks and acts like she has no cares in the world but when she speaks she’s a goddamn modern-day Voltaire”, what I get from her character is that she acts and talks pretty immature. In which case, her personality is reflected better with more simplistic, and sometimes childish, language.

When she says “Clothes are too restricting!” I get “I don’t like clothes!” from the sentiment first and foremost. After that, the reasoning “because I can’t move properly/do what I want in them” comes into play. “Clothes are too tight!” does change the initial meaning from this, true. But I wouldn’t say it’s as significant as you and False are arguing.

“I don’t like clothes!” still is the main message, but her reasoning of “because they’re too tight” immediately follows into the implications of tight clothing. Isn’t one of the effects of tight clothing that movement is restricted? I mean, have you tried to walk in a corset? It’s exhausting.

The only thing lost with the change here is specificity, but when taking the improved language for Neko’s character into account, I would say it’s a worthy trade-off.

Dark_Sage says:

The important thing to realize about the very->pretty change is that the person saying this doesn’t take anything very seriously, and he’s also lying right there.

“Oh, you and your fictional sister are close?”
“Yeah, we’re pretty close.” <- Just envision a guy with his eyes closed, one hand of the back of his head, making nervous laughter and you've got the picture. I don't think assuming editors don't know what they're doing is a very good idea for most viewers. While editors may miss the mark sometimes, the amount of times they hit it spot-on and improve the script generally outweighs the negative effects significantly.

8thSin says:

This may belong in the “What is an anime” post instead, but I think one of the main characteristics of anime is that it has no problem depicting kids as sophisticated individuals, compared to Western cartoons where kids are just dumb kids acting childish. Unless they’re young enough to be in elementary school or moeblobs going “Onii-chan”, most of them speak like they’ve been taken out of Ender’s Game. That’s what makes anime easier to relate for the older audience.

I pointed out those two examples because those are “fixes” that shouldn’t happen on a pro-tier translator’s work. There’s only two conceivable Japanese words that comes to mind in that sentence where the translator might reach “restricted,” and neither would sound dumb or childish. I guess I’m a purist when it comes to these… I would rather see subs resemble what’s actually being said rather than what sounds natural to the speaker’s appearance.

Those three lines you pasted for “very / pretty” section seriously didn’t sound like casual “ha-ha can you believe it?” type of conversation to me, at least I wouldn’t expect such a sentence to start with “Yes, ___”. Again, it’s hard to imagine a pro-tier translator would make such an elementary characterization mistake. But well, I haven’t seen this episode and I’m just guessing.

I find this comparison interesting though, because it really shows the “personality” of each group from edits made :)

herkz says:

>I would rather see subs resemble what’s actually being said rather than what sounds natural to the speaker’s appearance.

Why not both?

Also are you implying the people who work at Viz are pros? You watched their Accel World, right?

Dark_Sage says:

I didn’t say she was acting like how animes portray kids; I said she was acting childish. All she does for the entirety of the episode is act like an immature brat who happens to have huge tits – much like anime fans, except she’s not fat.

Maybe when kids throw tantrums in Japan they’re more articulate about it (because Japan is banzai onegaishimasu), but I’m sure you agree that a translation does not merely mimic the source material entirely, but adapts it intelligently for the new audience. And her actions indicated to me that a small change in her manner of speech would be beneficial to portraying her character for that sentence.

The very/pretty part you’ll need to watch for yourself to get where I’m going with this.

Xythar says:

I agree with the “very” to “pretty” close change. Firstly, the sister he’s talking about doesn’t even exist, and secondly people wouldn’t often say “Yes, we’re very close” in ordinary conversation. It just sounds wrong to me.

“Pretty” still has the feel of “closer than your average” and sounds a lot more natural.

Xythar says:

I think the original line is 僕によくなついててね but my hearing isn’t that great so I’m not certain.

temp_late says:

To me, “pretty” -> “very” seems okay or preferred because MC is bullshitting his way through a story about a sister he doesn’t have. He’s trying to smooth talk his way out of trouble.

As for Neko and clothes, everybody’s lines are on the long side, because she isn’t saying much. I can’t think of a way to dumb down “restricting” into something that means the same thing either, so I’d just run with that and edit down to below:

>> H-Here, put this on.
>> No!
>> I hate clothes! Too restricting.

Viz’s original:
>> H-Here, put this on!
>> I don’t want to!
>> Clothes are too restricting. I hate them!

Dark_Sage says:

I like it. Change the “I hate them!” to “Do not want!” and toss an exclamation mark on the first half of that line and you’d be golden.

“Clothes are too restricting! Do not want!”

Xythar says:

Also, to be fair, I’ve seen few simulcasts that have managed to use completely natural speech, and none of them have come from Viz or TAN. This isn’t even a case of characters speaking in a fashion that fits them as a character, I just mean in terms of dialogue that sounds like it would be spoken by an actual human being. At least 90% of simulcasts can benefit from editing in that regard, I’d say.

Minami says:

Yes, anime has no problem giving children lines they shouldn’t be able to come up with for another ten years. But what about older characters who use lines that sound childish? I wasn’t making Neko sound childish because she’s a child, but because it seemed to me that she has a childish personality. And future episodes confirm this. She impulsively pounces on a robot when she sees that it’s hurting Shiro. She even makes herself invisible and then tries to draw on Kuro’s face with a marker.

Since you haven’t seen the episode, I’ll fill you in on how she talks. She’s using some retarded mix of pseudo-archaic Japanese and normal Japanese. She introduced herself with 「わがはいはネコである」 and that line about clothes was 「嫌だ」 followed by 「服は窮屈だから嫌い」. I believe this situation merits childish speech. As for the restricting/tight part, yes, she did say it was too constricting, but I think it’s a fair change to make in this context. Though, in retrospect, “They make it hard to move,” might’ve been a better compromise.

Xythar says:

I think わがはいはネコである is a reference to a piece of satirical literature.

Seems kind of random but who knows.

herkz says:

It definitely is.

herkz says:

Also “I Am a Cat” is not a good translation of the title.

Xythar says:

For Mine Name Is “Cat”

Okay, okay, that kind of sucks too.

herkz says:

Using the royal We would be a good start.

Then again the novel translation translates the names so it’s got bigger problems than the title being retarded.

herkz says:

Of course, not translating the title literally is probably a far better idea.

kokujin-kun says:

>Well it’s not like Hatsuyuki AND Doki
>would get this wrong. I bet this change
>from HOMRA was correct.

No, both groups didn’t do their cocksucking research

corocoro says:

He was making fun of Hatsuyuki and Doki; both groups have a less than sterling reputation.

kokujin-kun says:

Okay, then I was being snarky too :p

Is Commie still going with “Howling Flame” for this one?

Dark_Sage says:

[01:05] [+Xythar] by the way, homura/homra is apparently pronounced “flame” but written with the characters for “howl”
[01:05] [+Xythar] hence, howling flame.

Likely so. It does sound cool, you must admit.

kokujin-kun says:

Well, as SAO has taught me over and over again, you go with the Engrish you have, not with the English you want -_-#

Chaos-kun says:

they really do a great job both Anime-koi and commie but what’s happen with doki and hatsuyuki

Beckett says:

Not sure what you mean by “what’s happen” with them. It’s pretty much their usual fuck-uppery.

themisfitjoe says:

yeah but the edits are making significant changes to the tone and meaning of the script… its like saying you appreciate what George Lucas did with the Special Editions of the original trilogy.

At that point, its not an edit, its a rewrite.

that being said, I don’t speak the language, so its possible that the edits catch the “gist” of the language intent and/or subtle meanings. But otherwise nope…

Minami says:

Significant changes to the tone are only bad if you start with the assumption that the original translator got everything completely right (or the change was just plain wrong). Obviously, fan edits of simulcast scripts exist because we believe they’re not perfect. Heavy-handed changes are going to happen in some shows, and I believe the Viz script necessitates it. If you’re not at least changing the tone to fit what’s being said in the original language more closely, then all your doing is proofreading, which is a huge waste of time, in my opinion. The official translator has done 90% of the work. If I’m not going to do the whole remaining 10% of the work, there’s absolutely no point in even touching the script. If you ever have any problems with certain changes in tone and interpretation, you can message me on IRC with an explanation, and I’ll take it into consideration. And by “explanation,” I mean you better have a breakdown of the Japanese that clearly shows that I’ve contradicted or misinterpreted the line.

Minami says:

Yes, I made a typo in there. Blow me.

AKor says:

So what about NowWeTheChefs version?

Dark_Sage says:

Musta missed them in my TokyoTosho search. But no, I won’t be doing theirs. Like Shini/Asenshi, they’d be disqualified anyway.

[Dark_Sage] Is your K edited?
[@Curser656] I do skim through it for stupid things like
[@Curser656] if its unbearable
[@Curser656] and i cut down lines that are 3 lines high and split them into 2 scentences
[Dark_Sage] So it’s QC’d but not edited
[@Curser656] yeah pretty much

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