Fansub Review: [Underwater] Kill la Kill (Episode 02)

B-Tier, Fansub Review — By on October 12, 2013 9:32 pm

This post was written by Dark_Sage. He is Dark_Sage.

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And the first real review of the season sets us off on the right path.

Table of Contents

Release Information

Visual Quality

Script Quality



Release Information

Episode details.

Release format: MKV (469 MB, 10-bit)

Japanesiness: No honorifics. Japanesey terms generally translated. (ex: Kamoi -> Godrobe)

English style: American English.

Encoding details

Speed: Quick (<48 hours)

Translation: Crunchyroll edit.


External links.

Group website

IRC channel: [email protected]



Visual Review


[Underwater] KILL la KILL - 02 (720p) [C0DDB47F].mkv_snapshot_01.42_[2013.10.12_19.37.52] [Underwater] KILL la KILL - 02 (720p) [C0DDB47F].mkv_snapshot_01.52_[2013.10.12_19.38.24]

Opening. Ugh, have you fucktards ever heard of the color picker tool? Yeah, orange wasn’t exactly the best choice here. Hell, I can’t even say I’d much like it if the color matched Matoi’s.

Rating: Bad.

[Underwater] KILL la KILL - 02 (720p) [C0DDB47F].mkv_snapshot_23.04_[2013.10.12_19.55.44] [Underwater] KILL la KILL - 02 (720p) [C0DDB47F].mkv_snapshot_23.20_[2013.10.12_19.56.06]

Ending. Why? You can’t just throw random colors onto a generic font and expect to be lauded for it. Lazy and ineffective.

Rating: Bad.




[Underwater] KILL la KILL - 02 (720p) [C0DDB47F].mkv_snapshot_01.20_[2013.10.12_13.01.33]

If this sign comes up and you don’t drool, your tastebuds are missing.

[Underwater] KILL la KILL - 02 (720p) [C0DDB47F].mkv_snapshot_03.49_[2013.10.12_13.05.13]

I had to fucking pause the video and turn the subs off to see if Underwater did this or the animators did.

That’s when you know the signs are good. Fucking brilliant placement.

[Underwater] KILL la KILL - 02 (720p) [C0DDB47F].mkv_snapshot_03.57_[2013.10.12_13.05.26] [Underwater] KILL la KILL - 02 (720p) [C0DDB47F].mkv_snapshot_04.12_[2013.10.12_13.05.46] [Underwater] KILL la KILL - 02 (720p) [C0DDB47F].mkv_snapshot_04.14_[2013.10.12_13.05.52]

See the “L” in blue? When the sign flashes off (in the sense of a lightbulb going out), so does that letter. Great touch.

[Underwater] KILL la KILL - 02 (720p) [C0DDB47F].mkv_snapshot_04.20_[2013.10.12_13.06.14] [Underwater] KILL la KILL - 02 (720p) [C0DDB47F].mkv_snapshot_04.58_[2013.10.12_13.06.59] [Underwater] KILL la KILL - 02 (720p) [C0DDB47F].mkv_snapshot_09.02_[2013.10.12_13.12.56] [Underwater] KILL la KILL - 02 (720p) [C0DDB47F].mkv_snapshot_09.30_[2013.10.12_13.13.33] [Underwater] KILL la KILL - 02 (720p) [C0DDB47F].mkv_snapshot_09.33_[2013.10.12_13.13.53]

This typeset can really only be caught in a fade.

[Underwater] KILL la KILL - 02 (720p) [C0DDB47F].mkv_snapshot_09.37_[2013.10.12_13.14.02]

The tracking here is quite good — the typeset comes in right when the kanji does.

[Underwater] KILL la KILL - 02 (720p) [C0DDB47F].mkv_snapshot_10.04_[2013.10.12_13.14.35] [Underwater] KILL la KILL - 02 (720p) [C0DDB47F].mkv_snapshot_12.01_[2013.10.12_13.16.36] [Underwater] KILL la KILL - 02 (720p) [C0DDB47F].mkv_snapshot_13.58_[2013.10.12_13.18.38] [Underwater] KILL la KILL - 02 (720p) [C0DDB47F].mkv_snapshot_18.44_[2013.10.12_19.11.26]

For some reason I don’t think this would have been all too hard to typeset.

[Underwater] KILL la KILL - 02 (720p) [C0DDB47F].mkv_snapshot_19.04_[2013.10.12_13.24.19] [Underwater] KILL la KILL - 02 (720p) [C0DDB47F].mkv_snapshot_20.58_[2013.10.12_13.30.18] [Underwater] KILL la KILL - 02 (720p) [C0DDB47F].mkv_snapshot_21.45_[2013.10.12_13.31.10][Underwater] KILL la KILL - 02 (720p) [C0DDB47F].mkv_snapshot_24.12_[2013.10.12_19.30.17] [Underwater] KILL la KILL - 02 (720p) [C0DDB47F].mkv_snapshot_24.14_[2013.10.12_19.30.29] [Underwater] KILL la KILL - 02 (720p) [C0DDB47F].mkv_snapshot_24.15_[2013.10.12_19.30.34] [Underwater] KILL la KILL - 02 (720p) [C0DDB47F].mkv_snapshot_24.15_[2013.10.12_19.30.56] [Underwater] KILL la KILL - 02 (720p) [C0DDB47F].mkv_snapshot_24.17_[2013.10.12_19.31.07] [Underwater] KILL la KILL - 02 (720p) [C0DDB47F].mkv_snapshot_24.19_[2013.10.12_19.31.17] [Underwater] KILL la KILL - 02 (720p) [C0DDB47F].mkv_snapshot_24.20_[2013.10.12_19.31.26] [Underwater] KILL la KILL - 02 (720p) [C0DDB47F].mkv_snapshot_24.22_[2013.10.12_19.31.36] [Underwater] KILL la KILL - 02 (720p) [C0DDB47F].mkv_snapshot_24.23_[2013.10.12_19.31.41]

God I love that font.


Overall, Underwater knocked it outta the park with the typesets.




Main Script.

[Underwater] KILL la KILL - 02 (720p) [C0DDB47F].mkv_snapshot_00.55_[2013.10.12_20.09.09] [Underwater] KILL la KILL - 02 (720p) [C0DDB47F].mkv_snapshot_22.22_[2013.10.12_23.15.04]

You guys should check yourselves before you wreck yourselves on capitalization standards.

[Underwater] KILL la KILL - 02 (720p) [C0DDB47F].mkv_snapshot_04.59_[2013.10.12_13.07.34]


[Underwater] KILL la KILL - 02 (720p) [C0DDB47F].mkv_snapshot_05.46_[2013.10.12_13.08.25]

Less so. “youth” is what you should use here. If you really want to use “youths”, the only time it’s considered acceptable is when referring to a specific set of younglings.

Ex: “Three youths just raped and killed a 30-year-old man in New York today. Prosecutors have announced the man will be posthumously charged with three counts each of statutory rape and abuse of a minor.”

[Underwater] KILL la KILL - 02 (720p) [C0DDB47F].mkv_snapshot_05.48_[2013.10.12_20.17.52]

“In which case” is a really shitty connector from the previous line. I’d go with “Therefore” instead. It’s more generic, but at least it fits from an English standpoint.

[Underwater] KILL la KILL - 02 (720p) [C0DDB47F].mkv_snapshot_07.38_[2013.10.12_20.22.05]

“get-up” works better than “outfit” here.

[Underwater] KILL la KILL - 02 (720p) [C0DDB47F].mkv_snapshot_13.52_[2013.10.12_20.53.55] [Underwater] KILL la KILL - 02 (720p) [C0DDB47F].mkv_snapshot_13.55_[2013.10.12_20.54.02]

It’s not clear what it is.

[Underwater] KILL la KILL - 02 (720p) [C0DDB47F].mkv_snapshot_15.03_[2013.10.12_13.20.06] [Underwater] KILL la KILL - 02 (720p) [C0DDB47F].mkv_snapshot_15.06_[2013.10.12_13.20.12] [Underwater] KILL la KILL - 02 (720p) [C0DDB47F].mkv_snapshot_15.08_[2013.10.12_13.20.18]

splitting hairs: concentrating on small, insignificant details to find fault with things

The only way the comedy could work with this line is if Tennis-chan set up an elaborate insult toward Matoi and then Matoi responded by refuting an irrelevant part of it. But actually, even in that scenario, “Quit splitting hairs” would be inferior to pretty much any other response. Even a generic, “You focused on that?” would work better.

I’d rather you just went with the easy escape from this and changed the latter two screens to “Bite me! I’m not a masochist!”//”Sure doesn’t sound that way to me.” (Get it? Cuz “bite me”.)






Watchability: Quite watchable.

Visual grade: B

Script grade: A-

Overall grade: B+

This was a damn solid release from Underwater. It’s a pity their karaoke sucks, but you’re getting a decent release on the whole. Unless you really hate groups translating Japanese terms, Underwater is a great choice for this show.

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jimmy says:

It was a nice release. I’m guessing that with your jizzing over the typesetting the visual grade would be higher without factoring in the karaoke?

Dark_Sage says:

Correct. Significantly higher.

Daiz says:

Maybe you should just have a separate “karaoke grade”?

My primary concern with song styling is that its readable. A lot of the time, fancy effects or styling will work directly against that. I’d also prefer to spend my time appreciating the actual OP/ED animation instead of having constantly attention-demanding karaoke effects bothering me. You seem to be quite the opposite. As such, I’d say it makes sense to split it into its separate thing. I’d also recommend to have less weight on it, because honestly, karaoke is probably the last thing I’d use to decide which group to follow, right behind honorifics/no honorifics (seriously, unless two different releases are pretty much exactly the same in every other aspect, these two things should pretty much not affect what you pick).

(By the way, the OP style here isn’t “orange”, it’s pink and red, which show up quite a lot in the OP. The ED colors aren’t “random” either, as the ED is rather predominantly tinted towards light blue/green.)

Anyway, let’s talk about visual things in general. Ignoring video quality (which should at least be passable), the most important thing visually to me is the main dialogue style – after all, it’s what you’ll end up seeing the most during the actual content. Good font, good size, good colors, good margins. Luckily enough many groups have at least decent styling these days, though a whole bunch of them still needs to learn the importance of horizontal margins. Way too often I still see subs that are almost hugging the left and right edge of the video at the same time. Another thing that I wish groups would learn is the importance of manual line breaking. At the very least, break lines that would be two-liners anyway nicely because VSFilter is dumb. Preferably I’d like them to split even more, but realistically speaking I probably can’t make people do that unless I can almost completely automate it (which is something I’m working on). Then there’s also a bunch of other micro-optimizations, but their importance is not that high (but are nice to have, obviously).

Typesetting is the next thing. Good typesetting can really enhance the visual experience, especially if there’s a lot of signs. Depending on the amount of signs, it can even be potentially more important than dialogue styling, because at least dialogue is relatively easy to restyle on the user end.

And then there’s OP/ED styling. They’re just 3 minutes of content that repeats practically every episode. Any relevance they have to the main content is in the animation and possibly in the lyrics, so those should really be the priority, not sparkly karaoke effects. And even then you’re likely to only watch them once (unless you really like the songs), so their importance in the big picture is even smaller.

Anon says:

“I’d also prefer to spend my time appreciating the actual OP/ED animation instead of having constantly attention-demanding karaoke effects bothering me.”

Exactly my thoughts. I remember when i watched the OP/ED of vivids Coppelion for the first time, and while the styling effects definitely looked cool, after it was over I was like “Wait, what even happened in the opening?”. I did focus more on the lyrics effects than on what was actually happening in the opening, so i had to rewatch it right after.

“And even then you’re likely to only watch them once (unless you really like the songs)”

Yep, i usually only watch the OP/ED once to check out whats going on in there and appreciate some cool animations / art style and see if the song is nice (in which case I usually download it later). After that I hardly ever watch the OP/ED again, unless the song is REALLY good (and since i download it anyway if I like it, theres no real need urge to watch the shorter 1,5 min version of it)

sjoe says:

What I(a.k.a a typical leecher with no fansubbing experience, if you will) prefer is of course clear translations, and as Diaz says I would not download an episode just for its karaoke. In more than 50% of the shows that I’ve watched, I’ve simply forwarded the OP/ED after the first episode.. Everyone has their own opinions; just thought I’d share mine. That, of course does not mean that I’ll not appreciate a good karaoke; just that I feel that it is not as important as typesetting or the translation.

Dark_Sage says:

1. I do have a separate karaoke grade. And I actually even have it for both OP and ED individually.
2. If you don’t want to read the song translation, then turn the subs off.
3. The color you used is not a color that’s found in the OP. lrn2colorpicker. Your ED was also hard to read. Try watching before you release.
4. Timing/encoding/styling work on a pass/fail basis. To imply main font styling is more important than karaoke and typesetting is rather laughable. Readability is all that matters.
5. The only one who’s ever thought manual line breaking is important is you. We’ve been over this before. You go ahead and cite the study you like and I’ll provide humorous examples of why it’s a bad idea. yada yada yada let’s not waste time.
6. Why the fuck are you talking about good typesetting being useful? I don’t believe I was arguing contrarily in this post.
7. Who the fuck said I wanted everyone to have sparkly kara effects? Stop putting words in my mouth. Yeah, I like ’em, no I’m not gonna drop your score for not having them. I gave this: a “Good” for example.

Daiz says:

Well, as it turns out, there’s actually two issues here when it comes to colors. One is in the release, one is on your end. First of all, your rendering is fucked. This is what the OP/ED should look like color-wise:

I’d suggest you take a look in your GPU settings, look for options regarding video, and turn absolutely everything you find off. Alternatively, use madVR.

However, there was also a problem in that the release script was incorrectly tagged as BT.601 when it should have been BT.709 because the last person who touched it had “Force BT.601” on in Aegisub. As a result, the colors got fucked, so even if your settings weren’t wrong the colors still wouldn’t be right. I’m going to make sure that never happens again, because absolutely fucking no fansubber should have that setting on in this day and age anymore.

I’m not going to bother with any of the other stuff because we’re probably not going to get anywhere by arguing about it (let’s just agree to disagree, though while you certainly do have separate karaoke grades, you should probably keep it away completely from the final “visual grade”), but you should really fix your playback. Meanwhile I’m going to make sure the message about “Force BT.601” goes through to fansubbers far and wide.

Anona says:

They’re still shit “effects”. Why are you here just because you got a lower grade for colours/style? Do you care for Dark_Sage’s score that much? You’re cute

Dark_Sage says:

Your OP looks fine there. Too bad that’s not what I saw.

My graphics card is set to its defaults (I assume AMD Catalyst is the “culprit”?), much like I’m using CCCP as default, because my test environment is intended to reflect what most people are going to experience when they watch subs. You can’t expect your viewers to change their system settings just to play your release perfectly. That’s insanely arrogant.

I still don’t exactly see why karaoke should be a non-factor. And it seems to me if you really believed that, you’d just… not do karaoke at all. Go ahead and set a bold example for us with that philosophy then. Let’s see how well it goes for ya. See? It matters. We can disagree as to what degree it should matter, though. But I’m not dropping it down to 0%.

Daiz says:

>My graphics card is set to its defaults (I assume AMD Catalyst is the “culprit”?)

Yes, it is. AMD enables a ton of video “enhancements” by default which do nothing but fuck shit up, and you should disable all of them.

Anon says:

I have an ATI card so I took a look in Catalyst to see what was set and by default everything did seem to be turned off, related to color anyway. The only options turned on were automatic deinterlacing and enforce smooth video playback. Dunno if it’s something the manufacturer enforced (these drivers were acquired through them) or if it’s because it’s old enough that it’s still called ATI, not AMD, and they started messing with things after that.

returnity says:

Seconded for AMD Catalyst. I’ve always disabled everything since I discovered this, but I’m not sure I’m comfortable trying to uninstall it entirely.

Dark_Sage says:

What do you mean you don’t want to uninstall it? Sure, games, and pretty much everything else will look worse, but at least Daiz’s karaoke will look perfect.

Well, you know, if he decides to have someone QC the next episode.

line0 says:

Wow, I’m surprised at your lack of reading comprehension. Nobody wants you to uninstall your gfx drivers and disabling the video “enhancements” doesn’t affect your games (or anything else than EVR for that matter) at all.

Dark_Sage says:

He’d ask me to store my data on tape if it made his subs look better.

The problem here is that I’m not changing up my test environment for one group.
Here’s my super-unfair set-up:
All drivers for my hardware
Everything fucking updated

I’m not changing anything for one group’s colors to look slightly nicer due to their own inability to handle multiple environments, especially not when said group originally tried arguing they didn’t even matter in the first place.

Daiz says:

Look, D_S, advising you to turn GPU “enhancements” off has not really anything do with my karaoke, as far as the colors go they were fucked up just by the incorrect colormatrix tag.

But those GPU “enhancements” are seriously nothing but fucking stupid garbage that fucks with literally EVERYTHING you watch, tampering with the intended looks of every series with completely detrimental filtering. AMD is really terrible with this, and I’ve been telling people to disable that shit elsewhere on the internet long before this comment thread too, you’re not some special case.

So please, for your own good, turn those “enhancements” off or at least use madVR which isn’t affected by them. And keep things that way for everything you watch.

Dark_Sage says:

Oh, if it’s actually fucking with *everything* then sure. I just didn’t want to make an exception for one group. I’ll fix it before the next review.

Novles says:

Not sure if serious.

Lazy-kun says:

D_S, just turn off the video enhancements in catalyst.

Dark_Sage says:

I think you’re all misunderstanding the definition of test environment.

Lazy-kun says:

it’s ab it of a bad test environment since, the integrated intel graphics cards and nvidia graphics cards do not turn on such “enhancements.” It’s only AMD that does it..

Dark_Sage says:

Ooh, integrated graphics and nvidia. You’re right, I forgot this was 2006. My bad. Let me go to the junkyard and find a more suitable test machine.

Kiraly says:

You’re just bitter because we nvidia folks didn’t have to hack our emulator before playing Danganronpa.

Lazy-kun says:

Dark_Sage, the thing is if you turn of AMD’s stupid video “enhancements” you get the same results that everyone who doesn’t have an AMD card.

2ColouredEyes says:

Haven’t watch this yet. Thanks for the review. I now know where to get the Kills.

Anon says:

Eclipse were right, who gives a fuck about karaoke effects.

Dark_Sage says:

Dark_Sage does! But a group can completely forgo kfx and still get a good or an excellent so long as their karaoke visually enhances the OP/ED to a notable degree. I’ve given Commie quite a few high scores for karaoke, and they’re the group that claims they care about karaoke the least.

Ultimately, if a group decides to go with a chosen aesthetic, that’s fine, so long as it works in practice. Here, it didn’t.

Anon says:

>”the visual grade would be higher without factoring in the karaoke”
>”Significantly higher”

I think it’s unfair to “significantly” lower a grade for a release that has excellent typesetting just because they didn’t style 3 minutes of bullshit that no one except you and a very, very, very minute minority even give a shit about. KFX/song FX are such an insignificant part of a release that knocking a group for not doing it ‘well’ is unfair.

Dark_Sage says:

Typesetting and karaoke are weighted similarly (though the weights change depending on how many signs there are). It’s the visual section, not the typesetting section. If you don’t care about karaoke, then ignore that section of the review. You’re free to take away whatever you want from my reviews, and I specifically format them so it’s easier to do so.

That being said, I’m willing to change my weights if you can convince me that on the whole that I’m unfairly representing the quality of a groups’ work with my reviews. But you’d better have a really, really, really good argument for it, because I’m quite happy with how it is right now.

Pelfmiester says:

Plenty of people care. If you don’t care about karaoke, you might as well stick with HorribleSubs, since karaoke and typesetting are generally the biggest reasons people avoid them.

Besides, it seems to count as one letter grade while typesetting counts as the other four since it still gets a B.

GuyFox says:

Are you for real? lol people who know what they’re doing avoid HS because CR can’t not shit themselves when they try to encode.

TT says:

I guess you’ve never seen what HD TV looks like? (hint: your eyes will bleed).

temp_late says:

Dialogue: 9,0:06:49.59,0:06:51.42,Default,,0,0,0,,Thank you, milady!
Dialogue: 9,0:06:53.42,0:06:55.06,Default,,0,0,0,,Without fail, milady!
Dialogue: 9,0:19:33.56,0:19:34.27,Default,,0,0,0,,Yes, Milady!
Dialogue: 9,0:22:22.37,0:22:23.76,Default,,0,0,0,,Forgive me, Milady.

Hm. I’ve seen it suggested that terms such as “miss” and “milady” should not be capitalized for direct address when used by themselves. Job and familial titles are capitalized, while terms of respect, status, and endearment are generally not. Supposedly. That said, a quick search shows that some books use caps while others do not.

Anyway, no matter which way you’re going on this, having 2x milady and 2x Milady can’t be right. Of course, this is a rather minor detail.

Dark_Sage says:

You’re right. I neglected to double-check their consistency in that regard. Good catch, it’s definitely wrong. Updated.

As for standards of capitalization… that’s not a terrible rule to go by. I like it. Unfortunately when it comes to right/wrong critiques, the whole issue is muddy. Gotta love English.

Juular says:

Episode one was some fun tracking:

Also, I’ve been editing the font to make it appear rougher like the original signs.

fohfuu says:

Maybe it was just my computer, but the font in the first episode looked like it had been unnecessarily bolded.

Juular says:

It wasn’t thick enough to me, so I used \bord to make it thicker. The font in episode 2 was edited to be a bit thicker, but not as thick as it was in episode 1 with \bord.

Justinnnnnn says:

During that first week, I kept repeating that scene over and over again because of the kickass tracking and music. You did a great job Juular, much appreciated :)

SomeLoser says:

That is some epic work there. Great job, Juular!

Ryuk says:

Did you use Mocha? Cause that’s some amazing tracking! I don’t think Mocha would be able to track that.

Fyurie says:

Mocha can track almost anything if you know how to use it right.

fohfuu says:

>Best typesetting of the year
>Meh karaoke
>Gets B-tier ranking
As expected of D_S!

Anon says:

B-But 3 minutes of KFX drastically affect the viewer experience.

fohfuu says:

3 minutes of meh is not going to bring the quality down for 99% of people.
Bad subs? Sure, but these weren’t bad subs, just mediocre ones.

Pacific says:

“Wh-What kind of kinky outfit is this?!”
“get-up” works better than “outfit” here.

I disagree. Get-up connotes oddity whereas outfit connotes specific purpose. The garb Ryuuko wears is a transformed sailor uniform. Oddity is already implied by her use of kinky.

Also, Ryuuko may wish to acknowledge that her shreds of clothing have purpose to help maintain a shred of dignity.

Pacific says:

*”purpose, to help her maintain” not “purpose to help maintain”

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